为何会出现“零负团费”等乱象？专家认为，违规的广告和报价是乱象出现的根源。同时，行政部门监管不力，缺乏一种好的管理机制，导致这些乱象屡禁不止。要治理乱象，职能部门得有更多的作为，游客也要学会维权。

Why will the“Zero negative membership fee”Mess, etc？Experts say，Illegal advertising and quotation is the root of mess appear。At the same time，Administrative departments lack of supervision，The lack of a good management mechanism，Lead to these mess repeatedly endures more than。To control the mess，Functional departments must have more as，Tourists learn to rights。

　　旅游法草案8月27日首次提请全国人大常委会审议。草案共设十章98条，不仅对旅游者权利和义务作出相应规定，对政府层面的旅游规划提出明确的法律要求，还对旅游消费者关注的热点问题作出回应。比如，针对“零负团费”，旅游法草案规定旅行社不得以低于成本的价格招徕、组织、接待旅游者等。

On August 27, supply the draft for the first time, submit a request to the National People's Congress standing committee review。The draft consists of ten chapter article 98，Not only the rights and obligations for tourists to make corresponding provisions，For the government levels of tourism planning and puts forward specific legal requirements，The tourism consumers concerned hot problems to respond。For example，According to“Zero negative membership fee”，The draft stipulates travel agency shall not supply the price lower than the cost to attract、organization、Receive tourists, etc。

　　那么，“零负团费”这类旅游乱象的根源在哪里？又该如何根治？潇湘晨报记者对话各方专家，对这一问题进行深度剖析。

so，“Zero negative membership fee”This kind of tourism at the root of the mess in where？And how to effect a radical cure？Xiaoxiang morning paper reporter dialogue parties experts，The problems in depth analysis。

　　嘉宾 guests

　　夏赞才湖南师大旅游学院院长、博士生导师、教授

XiaZanCai hunan normal university, dean of the college of tourism、Doctoral tutor、professor

　　胡星斗北京理工大学经济学教授、中国问题学专家

Hu xingdou, a professor of economics at the university of Beijing institute of technology、China experts

　　邬敬民著名揭黑导游、《叫我如何不宰你》一书作者

WuJingMin famous jie black guide、《Call me not to kill you》Book the author

现象 旅游购物“次、假、虚，三者必居其一” Phenomenon tourism shopping“time、false、virtual，Three will dwell one”

　　潇湘晨报：目前大部分旅游的利益链条是倒挂的：地接社不收甚至倒付团费给组团社，导游出人头费买团，购物点（自费景点）支付回佣支撑整个链条，怎么看这种现象？

Xiaoxiang morning：At present most of the tourism interests chain is the fuchsia：DeJieShe don't even fall pay membership fee to ZuTuanShe，The tour guide reward buy group，购物点（At one's own expense attractions）Pay rebate support the whole chain，How to see this kind of phenomenon？

　　夏赞才：首先，这不是模式的问题，是很多环节在违法。其次，它也不是规章的问题，大约十年前，《中国旅游报》约我做了一个访谈，也是关于导游和购物的问题，我用了一个词来形容，就是“逼良为娼”。现在我们慢慢熟悉这个行业以后，都知道这个问题的根源不在导游。

XiaZanCai：First of all，This is not the problem of model，Is a link in the illegal。secondly，It is not the problem of rules，About ten years ago，《China's tourism to》And I made a interview，As well as the guide and shopping problems，I use a word to describe，is“BiLiangWeiChang”。Now we get familiar with the industry later，All know the root of the problem is not guide。

　　胡星斗：中国的旅游市场是比较混乱的，无序竞争太多，旅游产品不合格，甚至出现欺诈现象。至于团费，其他一些国家也有这种情况，比如新马泰。今年我老婆孩子去了新马泰，5000多元一个人，去3个国家，情况跟中国也差不多，去新加坡就是逛了3个商场。泰国的导游也没有底薪，他们的收入主要靠小费和带游客购物。（低团费）游客要做好思想准备，过低的团费，不符合常识。

Hu xingdou, a：China's tourism market is more confusion，Disordered competition too much，Tourism product is not qualified，Appear even fraud phenomenon。As for the membership fee，Other countries also have this kind of situation，Such as new matei。This year I wife and children went to the new matei，5000 yuan one person，To three countries，With China's situation is similar，To Singapore is around the three stores。Thailand tour guide also have no base salary，Their income mainly rely on tips and take tourists shopping。（Low cost）Visitors to prepare，Low cost，Do not conform to the common sense。

　　潇湘晨报：这种模式来源于哪里？大概什么时候开始出现的？

Xiaoxiang morning：This kind of mode from where？About when to begin to appear？

　　夏赞才：这种现象已经出现很久了，最早应该是从泰国开始的，实际上这也是一种旅游倾销，后来蔓延到香港。国内最初是在海南开始的，后来就是云南，这些年全国都是。我原来在管湖南师大旅行社时就已经有，那时是1995、1996年。

XiaZanCai：This phenomenon has appeared for a long time，The earliest should start from Thailand，In fact this is also a kind of tourism dumping，Then spread to Hong Kong。Domestic was first started in hainan，Later is yunnan，These are the national。I was in the tube hunan normal university when they travel agencies have，It was 1995、In 1996,。

　　潇湘晨报：不少游客认为，游玩之旅其实变成了购物之旅。那么，这些商品的质量如何？购物的回扣大概是什么情况？

Xiaoxiang morning：Many tourists think，Play journey actually became shopping trip。so，The quality of these goods？Shopping rebates is probably what circumstance？

　　邬敬民：导游的讲解不再是传播旅游点的历史文化、民俗风情，而是处处引导游客的消费意识，旅游购物已经演变成旅游的两大陷阱之首。至于商品的质量，我在书中有分析过：次、假、虚（品质次、质量假、价格虚设），三者必居其一。其中最厉害的是珠宝类，国家质检总局在2006年的一份报告中说，旅游过程中，购自国内的合格率为五成一，境外的一成三，而新加坡的百分之百是假货。

WuJingMin：Tour guide's explanation is no longer spread of the historical and cultural attractions、Folk customs，But everywhere guide tourists consumption consciousness，Tourism shopping has evolved into the two big trap of tourism。As for the quality of the goods，I am in the book there are analyzed：time、false、virtual（Quality time、Quality false、Price dummy），Three will dwell one。One of the most severe is jewelry，Aqsiq in a 2006 report said，Tourism process，Bought from domestic percent of pass is fifty-one percent，Thirteen percent of the overseas，And one hundred percent of Singapore is fake。

　　目前，海南的水晶回扣是七成，云南的玉回扣是八成五。

At present，Hainan crystal rebate is seventy percent，Yunnan jade rebate is eighty-five percent。

　　潇湘晨报：导游处在这个链条的末端，他们承载了整个链条的压力，所以他们跟游客发生冲突是一种必然？

Xiaoxiang morning：At the end of the tour guide the chain，They loaded the whole chain of pressure，So they conflict with visitors is a kind of inevitable？

　　夏赞才：导游和游客只是一个界面，前面是很长的积累，最后一定会在这个地方爆发出来，这是必然的。不仅仅湖南是这样，海南也是这样，香港也是这样。比如香港的旅游团几天游才收几百元，我不要调查也知道这里面是有猫腻的。羊毛出在羊身上，导游千方百计也要把钱弄回来。

XiaZanCai：Guide and tourists is just a interface，The front is a very long accumulation，Finally will be in this place out，This is inevitable。Not only is this hunan，Hainan also is such，Hong Kong is also such。Such as Hong Kong tour swim a few days to accept hundreds of yuan，I don't want to survey also know there is the issue。Wool comes from the sheep，Guide leave no stone unturned to also want to get the money back。

剖析 “行政监管不力，经常是出事后才处理” analysis “Lack of administrative supervision，That is often only after the treatment”

　　潇湘晨报：旅行社管理条例中明确规定禁止零团费，而目前零团费仍然屡禁不止，根源在哪里？

Xiaoxiang morning：Travel agency management regulations expressly prohibited by zero cost，And at present zero membership fee still repeated the more than，Root where？

　　夏赞才：去年上半年，我参加国家旅游局的一个会时提出一个观点，别想着怎么去管旅行社，现在是这样一个业态环境，要导游独善其身是不公平的，也做不到。

XiaZanCai：In the first half of last year，I took part in the national tourism administration of a will put forward a point of view，Don't thinking about how to get to the tube travel agency，It is such a format environment，To guide possess is not fair，Also can't do。

　　那为什么现在是这样一种情况？首先，我们的行政部门监管不力；另一方面，旅行社是自己做死自己，旅行社行业协会形同虚设。

Why is now such a situation？First of all，Our administrative departments lack of supervision；On the other hand，Travel agency is oneself do his dead，Travel agency industry association exist in name only。

　　胡星斗：政府相关职能部门应该要对违规的做法进行有效打击，要规范市场。现在的情况来看，打击治理是不到位的。

Hu xingdou, a：The government related functional departments should to the illegal practice is an effective fight，To regulate the market。Now the situation，Blow management is not in place of。

　　我国的行政职能部门经常是出事后才处理，不会事前去做。如果严重了，投诉多了，引起了高层的重视，于是整治也就来了，治理也是运动式的，没有一个常态的机制。

China's administrative department that is often only after the treatment，Will not advance to do。If serious，Complaints much，Caused the attention of the top，So the improvement also came，Management is also movement type，Not a normal mechanism。

　　潇湘晨报：当游客意识到这个问题时，这种模式迟早会玩不下去？

Xiaoxiang morning：When visitors aware of the problem，This model will play not go down？

　　夏赞才：我原来的观点就比较悲观一点，寄希望于今天出台一个政策，明天这个问题就能解决，这太理想了，可能需要一个比较长的周期。有一种观点就是自愈疗法，这链条总有一天会断，总有一个环节会断，这种观点更消极。旅游业要让民众满意，政府要作为，行业要自律，游客要理性，光旅游局不行。

XiaZanCai：My original point of view is a little pessimistic，Hope that today issued a policy，We can solve this problem by tomorrow，This is ideal，May need a longer period。Have a point of view is self healing therapy，This chain will one day be broken，There is always a link will be broken，This view more negative。Tourism to make people satisfied，The government should as，Industry self-discipline to，Visitors to the rational，Light tourism administration not。

　　潇湘晨报：这几年国家也出台了很多规章，包括旅行社条例里面，都很明确地规定了不准零负团费。旅游部门也在年年整治，一些违规的也被处理，为什么就一直无法杜绝呢？

Xiaoxiang morning：Over the past few years countries have introduced a lot of rules，Including travel agency regulations inside，Are all very clearly stipulates no zero negative membership fee。Tourism department also at this year improvement，Some illegal also be processed，Why has been unable to stop？

　　夏赞才：这不是旅游局一家能管好的问题，应该是相关很多部门共同管理的问题，缺乏一种好的管理机制。

XiaZanCai：This is not a tourism can manage problem，Should be related to a lot of departments joint management problem，The lack of a good management mechanism。

　　比如工商、质监，包括保护消费者权益的很多部门，都应该管。所以有些地方成立旅委会，领导一般是党委常委，不然他没有办法去协调很多部门。又比如我们比较熟悉的假日办，那必须是很多部门在联动，效率才会高。

Such as commerce、Qualitative inspect，Including the protection of the rights and interests of consumers, many departments，Should tube。So in some places a committee was established，Leadership is generally party committee standing committee，Or he can't go to coordinate many departments。And such as we compare familiar JiaRiBan，That must be a lot of departments in linkage，Efficiency will be high。

　　胡星斗：很多问题的原因其实都是一样的，包括食品安全等，旅游乱象只是社会突出的热点问题之一，这是系统性的。执法不力是重要原因，这是由于社会对监管部门的监督不力造成的。

Hu xingdou, a：A lot of the cause of the problem in fact are the same，Including food safety, etc，Tourism mess just social highlight one of the hot topics，This is systematic。Weak law enforcement is the important reason，This is because the society to regulatory supervision caused by poor。

　　邬敬民：零负团费是政府相关制度中明令禁止的，但屡禁不止，唯一的原因是执法不严，违法不究。

WuJingMin：Zero negative membership fee is relevant government system in banned，But repeated the more than，The only reason is lax enforcement，WeiFaBuJiu。

　　潇湘晨报：旅游法草案目前已进入审议阶段，旅游法出台后，会对我国的旅游市场带来哪些变化？

Xiaoxiang morning：The draft supply at present has already entered the stage，On supply after，On our country's tourism market will bring what changes？

　　夏赞才：目前我国没有旅游法，最高的规范是旅游业条例，旅游法出台后，对中国的旅游发展是有积极意义的。在宏观层面应可以促进旅游业的健康发展；在微观层面将为旅游者权益的保护提供法律依据。

XiaZanCai：At present our country not supply，The highest standard is tourism regulations，On supply after，To China's tourism development is of positive significance。In the macroscopic level should be able to promote the healthy development of the tourism industry；In the micro level for tourists to provide legal basis for the protection of the rights。

　　邬敬民：这几天旅游业的同行都在讨论这个问题，旅游法草案对于导游的利益没有提太多。此外，草案的部分规定比较模糊，比如“旅行社安排旅游者在指定场所购物要罚款”，那不进指定场所购物呢？

WuJingMin：This few days tourism peers were discussing this problem，The draft supply for the interests of the guide did not ask too much。In addition，Part of the draft regulation is more ambiguous，For example“Tourists travel agency arranged in a designated place shopping to a fine”，That doesn't into a designated place shopping?？

治理 “必须是系统工程” management “Must be a system engineering”

　　潇湘晨报：导游没有工资、保险，收入完全来自回扣，是造成目前旅游乱象的重要原因。几年前国家旅游局计划推动解决导游薪酬的问题，但一直没有得到解决，问题主要出在哪？

Xiaoxiang morning：Guide does not receive wages、insurance，Income from rebate completely，In the tourism is the important reason for the mess。A few years ago, the national tourism administration plans to boost to solve the problem of tour guide salary，But has not been resolved，The problem main？

　　邬敬民：导游的收入来源不是导致乱象的主要原因，根源在于职能部门任由零负团费盛行，导游们也是被逼无奈，但大部分导游还是乐此不疲，毕竟行业的混乱，能让他们挣更多钱。

WuJingMin：Guide source of income is not the main cause of lead to the mess，Root functions allow zero negative membership fee prevailing，The guide also be compelled helpless，But most of the guide or happy，After all, industry of chaos，To make more money。

　　潇湘晨报：会不会出现这种情况，我这个地方管理得太厉害，导致旅游价格上升，可能就会失去竞争力，从而导致地方失去治理的动力？

Xiaoxiang morning：Will appear this kind of circumstance，I this place management too much，Lead to tour prices rise，May be losing competitiveness，Leading to local lose control of power？

　　夏赞才：对旅游目的地来说，的确可能有这方面的顾虑，但这是短视。另一种可能性是，哪个地方下决心带头管好了，游客可以放心大胆消费，不担心受骗上当，就可能获得更重要的竞争优势。旅游最重要的不是价格，比价格更重要的是质量。旅游目的地的竞争，靠坑蒙拐骗是不可能维持很久的。比如说，湖南旅游地价格上去了，游客难道就都到四川、云南去了？就算有这种现象，也是短期的。

XiaZanCai：For to tourism destination，Indeed may have the concerns，But this is myopia。Another possibility is，Which place determined to lead the mind，Visitors can rest assured bold consumption，Don't worry about deceived，Can get a more important competitive advantage。Tourism is the most important is not the price，Price is more important than quality。Tourist destination competition，By KengMeng kidnaping is impossible to keep for a long time。For example，Hunan tourism price go up，Tourists are all to sichuan、Yunnan to the？Even with this kind of phenomenon，Is short-term。

　　潇湘晨报：有人提出一个观点说，应严厉打击、净化购物点这个环节，使整个链条都失去基础，从而倒逼这种模式的消失，怎么看这个观点？

Xiaoxiang morning：Someone put forward a point of view said，Should crack down on、Purification 购物点 this link，Make the whole chain is lost foundation，Thus DaoBi this mode disappear，How to look at this point of view？

　　夏赞才：在我看来，关键点一定不是在购物，购物是末端。如果要追究的话，比如说违规的广告、报价，这可能才是根源。

XiaZanCai：In my opinion，Key points must not in shopping，Shopping is end。If shall be investigated for his words，For example illegal advertisement、offer，This is likely to be root。

　　现在有一些地方保护主义现象，执法部门不认真管，其实长远来看会害了地方。游客慢慢就会知道其中猫腻，都不买东西了，总有一天就会崩盘。

Now there are some local protectionism phenomenon，Law enforcement not earnest tube，In the long run will hurt place。Tourists slowly will know among them something fishy going on，Do not buy a thing，There is always a day will crash。

　　潇湘晨报：那要如何才能治理好这种现象呢？

Xiaoxiang morning：That should how to govern this kind of phenomenon？

　　夏赞才：治理也不要寄希望于哪个部门，一定是要综合治理的，这必须要有一个长效的机制。如果所有的虚假广告都没有了，那肯定会好一点。比如发现旅行社打虚假倾销广告，我就处理你这个旅行社。

XiaZanCai：Management also don't hope that which department，Must be comprehensive governance，This must have a long-acting mechanism。If all the false advertisement all have no，It would be better。Such as travel agencies found that play false dumping advertising，I will deal with you this travel agency。

　　每个环节都能出点力，每个环节都能解决一点问题，整体上就会少很多问题，这是一个系统工程，包括媒体也很重要。

Each link can be a force，Every link can solve a problem，, on the whole, would be less a lot of problems，This is a system engineering，Including the media is also very important。

　　胡星斗：职能部门要有更多作为，游客也要学会维权。

Hu xingdou, a：Functional departments should have more as，Tourists learn to rights。