堵上小传旺们的伤害之源 On the wall of biographies of the source of excess damage

对话人 中国人民大学教授 郑功成 Detained by the people's university of China ZhengGongCheng professor

中华全国律师协会副会长 朱征夫 The all China lawyers association, vice President of ZhuZhengFu

教育部教育发展研究中心基础教育研究室主任 汪 明 The ministry of education education development research center, director of research foundation education wang Ming

【新闻背景】 【News background】

　　7月27日，本版“民生调查”栏目推出报道《小传旺的“安全闸”为何道道失灵》，调查了13岁男孩小传旺辍学到汽修厂当学徒，以致遭人伤害的深层社会原因：家庭、学校、相关法规，为何都没能保护到他？稿件刊发后，引起了一定反响。

July 27,，This version“Survey the livelihood of the people”Column reports out《Biographies of popular“Safety brake”Why were scattered failure》，13 years old boy survey of biographies dropped out as an apprentice to a flourishing，So that was the deep social cause damage：family、The school、Related regulations，Why could not protect to him？Published manuscript after，Cause a reaction。

　　在现行的法律制度下，小传旺到底算不算童工？家长如果不让孩子上学，法律应该如何施以援手？对于收入刚刚超过低保线的贫困居民，社会救助体系又该如何体现作用？

In the existing legal system，Flourishing exactly calculating do not calculate biographies of child labor？If parents don't let the children to go to school，How should the law to help？For income just over low poverty line residents，Social assistance system and how to reflect role？

【核心观点】 【Core ideas】

　　观点一

Viewpoint a

　　没有劳动合同、不支付经济报酬，使用未成年人在经营场所劳动，并从中盈利，一样可以被认为是事实童工。

No labor contract、Don't pay economic compensation，Use a minor Labour in the business premises，And to profit，The same can be thought of as the facts of child labor。

　　观点二

View two

　　不妨考虑将《义务教育法》和劳动法规衔接，规定用人单位不得招用未完成九年制义务教育的工人，这样有助于从源头上遏制一些家长让孩子过早辍学“学手艺”的冲动。

Might consider will《Compulsory education law》Labor laws and regulations and cohesion，Regulations the employing units shall not hire is not complete nine-year compulsory education workers，This helps to from the source contain some parents let children drop out early“Learn skills”impulse。

　　观点三

View three

　　确实需要对现行叠加式的低保救助制度加以改进，让不同的救助项目相对独立地承担自己的救助责任。

Really need on the superposition type low relief system to improve it，Let different programs to take their relatively independent of relief responsibility。

一 问 不拿工资的学徒，不算童工？ Ask a unpaid hand apprentice，Not child labor？

　　记者：小传旺事件发生后，当地劳动监察部门称，由于杜传旺是其父委托给汽修厂老板照顾的，既没有劳动合同，又没有领取过薪酬，因此，无法认定构成劳动关系，也无法认定他是童工。童工认定的核心要件到底有哪些？

reporter：Biographies of flourishing after the incident，Local labor supervision department says，Because his father DuChuanWang is entrusted to a boss to take care of，Neither the labor contract，And not get a salary，so，Can't tell that constitute the labor relations，Also can't tell that he is child labor。The core elements of that child labor exactly what？

　　朱征夫：在法律上，童工认定的核心要件大致有两个：一是当事人年龄，即未满16岁的未成年人；二是是否在经营性场所提供劳动。

ZhuZhengFu：In the law，The core elements of that child labor roughly two：Party a is age，That is a minor under the age of 16；Second is whether in business sites provide labor。

　　记者：如果未成年人从事的是没有合同、没有报酬的劳动，比如学徒工，能被认定为童工吗？

reporter：If a minor is not engaged in the contract、Unpaid labor，Such as wages，Can be identified as child labor？

　　朱征夫：报酬也可以分为很多种。除了金钱报酬以外，有的学徒在工作之前和老板商定不要工钱但包吃住，其中“包吃住”也应视作报酬的一种形式。

ZhuZhengFu：Compensation also can be divided into many。In addition to other than monetary compensation，Some apprentice before work and the boss agreed not to wages but the bag eats live，Among them“The bag eats live”Also should be regarded as a form of compensation。

　　仅以《劳动法》和《劳动合同法》中关于劳动关系的相关定义，将没有合同、没有领工资作为要件来判定小传旺不属于童工，是片面的。

Only to《Labor law》and《Labor contract law》Labor relations in the definition of relevant，Will not have a contract、Not the wage as elements of biographies to determine leavened don't belong to child labor，Is one-sided。

　　我国《未成年人保护法》中规定“任何组织或者个人不得招用未满十六周岁的未成年人，国家另有规定的除外。”

Our country《The protection of minors》Specified in the“No organization or individual may employ persons under the age of sixteen，Except as otherwise provided by the state。”

　　在这里，“招用”可以理解为“招收和使用”。也就是说，无论是招收，还是使用未成年人在经营性场所从事劳动，都是非法的。如果是在没有工资、没有合同的情况下，招用未成年人，压榨未成年人的劳动成果，性质更加恶劣。

here，“action”Can be understood as“Recruit and use”。That is，Whether for，Or use the minors in the business place engaged in labor，Is illegal。If it was in no salary、No contract，Hire minors，Squeezing minors, the work achievement，Nature more bad。

　　记者：有人认为，受监护人委托，吸纳孩子进工厂做学徒，形成的是委托监护的关系，不能构成非法用工，这种说法成立吗？

reporter：Some people think that，Entrusted by the guardian，Absorbing the child into the factory do apprentice，The form is to entrust monitoring of the relationship，Don't make illegal employment，This statement was founded？

　　朱征夫：委托监护和劳动关系是两种不同的关系，不宜混为一谈。委托监护的目的是为了未成年人的学习和生活，而不是为了用工。

ZhuZhengFu：Entrust monitoring and labor relations are two different relations，Should not be confused。The purpose is to entrust monitoring minors life and study，Not for labor。

　　在杜传旺事件中，汽修厂老板董玉秀不能用委托监护关系来掩盖非法用工的事实，劳动部门也不能用委托监护关系来推卸监管责任。

In DuChuanWang events，A boss DongYuXiu can't use entrust to guard relation to cover up the fact that illegal employment，The labor department also cannot use entrust to guard relation to shirk responsibility supervision。

　　记者：在现实生活中，一些未成年人辍学去学手艺，形成事实童工。这种情况如何避免？如果出现事实童工，在现行法律体系中，是否有明确的执法主体？

reporter：In real life，Some minor school to learn skills，Form factual child labor。How to avoid this situation？If appear the fact of child labor，In the current legal system，Whether there is a clear law enforcement main body？

　　朱征夫：避免事实童工，首先应该从明确监管责任着手。根据未成年人保护法相关规定，当有侵害未成年人权益的事件发生时，学校、政府相关部门都有劝阻、制止或者向有关部门提出检举或者控告的责任。

ZhuZhengFu：Avoid the fact child labor，First should clear responsibility supervision from the start。According to the relevant provisions of the protection of minors，When there is a violation of the rights of minors event happens，The school、The relevant government departments have discouraged、Stop to the relevant departments or disclose or put forward against the responsibility。

　　我国现行法律赋予了各级劳动监察部门对于童工等非法用工情况的执法权力。如果执法主体执法不力，不履行或者不正确履行职责，致使公共财产、国家和人民的利益遭受重大损失，可以参照现有渎职犯罪的相关法律规定予以追责。

The current law endowed with the labor inspection departments at all levels for the illegal employment of child labor and law enforcement power。If law enforcement main body weak law enforcement，Don't perform or not correct perform its responsibilities，Cause public property、Countries and the interests of the people suffered heavy losses，Can refer to the related law malpractice existing criminal responsibility shall chase。

二 问 家长就不让上学，谁来管？ 2 q parents won't allow to go to school，Who come to tube？

　　记者：如果父母坚持不让孩子上学，怎么办？

reporter：If parents insist not to let their children to school，do？

　　汪明：确实有少部分孩子的监护人出于这样或那样的原因，让适龄孩子辍学。现实中对这种行为的强制约束力仍显不足。学校和教育部门没有明确的执法权力，面对拒不让孩子上学的家长，他们往往也无计可施。

WangMing：Do have a few of the child's guardian for one reason or another，Let that school-age children drop out。In the reality of this kind of behavior of forced binding still shows insufficient。Schools and education department no definite law enforcement power，To let the children to school with their parents，They often can do nothing。

　　记者：《义务教育法》执行情况如何？是否仍存在辍学现象？他们为何辍学？

reporter：《Compulsory education law》Implementation how to？Whether the phenomenon still has dropped out？Why they drop out？

　　汪明：从总体上看，义务教育阶段适龄儿童、少年辍学的现象得到有效控制。但应当承认，在我国广大农村地区，特别是中西部农村地区仍有一定比例的辍学现象发生。

WangMing：Generally speaking，Compulsory education phase school-age children、The phenomenon of young school controlled effectively。But should admit，In the vast rural areas in China，Especially in the Midwest rural areas are still have a certain proportion of school phenomenon。

　　事实上，在义务教育阶段，学生辍学尤其是农村适龄学生辍学的情况大致可分为三种情况：

In fact，In the obligation education stage，Students drop out especially rural students drop out of that can be divided into three kinds of cases：

　　一种是因贫辍学。尽管按照《义务教育法》的规定，不收学费、杂费，贫困学生还能获得一些补助。但还是有一些监护人认为：孩子上学，家里就少了劳动力。所以让过小的孩子走入社会或从事农业劳动，造成辍学。从总体上说，因贫辍学的情况已经大大减少。

One is poor drop out。Although according to《Compulsory education law》Provisions of the，Don't accept tuition、Miscellaneous expenses，Poor students still can obtain some allowance。But there are still some guardian think：Their children to school，The home less Labour。So let the too small children entering society or engaged in agricultural labor，Cause drop out。In general，Poor school already have greatly reduced。

　　第二种是家长和孩子都认为继续升学无望，不如早点学一门技能，选择辍学。

The second is the parents and children all think that to continue with school hopeless，Earlier than learn a skill，Choose discontinue。

　　此外，近年来部分地区由于撤点并校，使得孩子上学路途变远，家庭经济负担加重，家长不让孩子上学的情况也时有发生。

In addition，In recent years due to some parts of BingJiao removed，Make the children to school is far，Family economic burden，Parents don't let the children school also happen from time to tome。

　　记者：如何才能更好防止学生辍学？对拒不送孩子上学的监护人，除劝说以外，还能有哪些办法？

reporter：How to better prevent students drop out？To refuse to send their children to school's guardian，In addition to persuade other than，Still can have what way？

　　汪明：有人认为，《义务教育法》的罚则有点“软”，这种说法也不是完全没有道理。

WangMing：Some people think that，《Compulsory education law》Penalties a little“soft”，This statement is not wholly makes no sense。

　　从制度设计上说，一方面，要赋予学校或教育部门法定职能，加强对辍学情况的监管。同时，还可参照一下其它国家的经验，赋予各地未成年人保护机构监管的职能，在未成年人教育权益受到侵害时，担负起临时监护责任。

From system design，On the one hand，To give the school or education department legal functions，To strengthen the supervision of the school situation。At the same time，Also can consult the experience of other countries，Give all the protection of minors institutions supervision function，In a minor education rights and interests are infringed upon，Shoulder the temporary guardianship responsibility。

　　另一方面，针对杜传旺这种类似情况的辍学，在我国已经全面普及九年义务教育的情况下，不妨考虑将《义务教育法》和现有的《劳动法》或《劳动合同法》等相关法律法规衔接，规定用人单位不得招用未完成九年义务教育的工人，这样有助于从源头上遏制一些家长过早让孩子辍学“学手艺”的冲动。

On the other hand，According to DuChuanWang this similar situation of dropping out，In our country has universal nine years of compulsory education，Might consider will《Compulsory education law》And existing《Labor law》or《Labor contract law》And other relevant laws and regulations cohesion，Regulations the employing units shall not hire not finished nine years of compulsory education workers，This helps to curb some parents from the source premature children from school“Learn skills”impulse。

三 问 刚过低保线还困难，咋办？ Q just a low line difficult，do？

　　记者：小传旺家庭收入刚刚过当地的低保线，但是依然处于贫困的边缘。社会应该如何帮助这样的家庭？

reporter：Biographies of popular family income just after the local subsidies line，But are still in the edge of poverty。Society should how to help such family？

　　郑功成：比较理想的社会救助体系，应该是由多个肩负不同责任的救助项目组成的综合型制度。每一个项目都有自己的特定功能，这些功能，最好是并行的，而不是叠加的。

ZhengGongCheng：An ideal social assistance system，Should be different responsibility by multiple shoulder of relief projects comprehensive system。Every project has its own specific functions，These functions，Had better be parallel，Instead of superposition。

　　比如低保制度，是以收入状况为判断依据的，本质上是对低收入家庭提供实物保障。但是，现行的低保制度中叠加了很多其他的社会救助功能，比如免费享受基本医疗保险、小孩教育救助等。

Such as low system，Income state is for the judgement basis，In essence is to provide real security for low-income families。but，The current low system in many other superposition of social assistance function，Such as free enjoy primary medical treatment insurance、The child education assistance, etc。

　　这样做的好处是可以更大程度上为低保家庭提供救助，评估起来也简单。但这样做不利于在低保边缘线上的家庭接受社会救助。

The advantage of this is that more degree to provide assistance for low income families，Evaluation up also simple。But to do so in low against the edge of the family accepted online social assistance。

　　记者：据记者了解，小传旺并没有加入新农合。像他这样的遭受了意外伤害而需要医疗救助，该怎么办？

reporter：According to the reporter understands，And not to join the new biographies of prosperous farmers $。As he such suffered accident harm and need medical assistance，do？

　　郑功成：新农合只是沿袭了计划经济时代的叫法，其本质是社会医疗保险而非合作性质的医疗保障，只有参加进来才能享受相应的医疗保障待遇，因此，应该强制参加。

ZhengGongCheng：New farming and just follow the era of planned economy way，Its essence is the social medical insurance and not the nature of the medical security cooperation，Only to come in to enjoy the corresponding health care treatment，so，Should be forced to。

　　强制参加的目的之一，正是为了防范疾病与意外事故发生后，人们缺乏基本医疗保障的情况。

One of the purposes of forced to，It is to prevent disease and accident after the accident，People lack of basic medical insurance。

　　如果拒不加入医疗保险而发生了意外伤害，就应该强调个人的责任。

If refused to join medical insurance and had an accident harm，Should emphasis on individual responsibility。

　　意外伤害若是由他人造成的，应该依法向致害人要求民事赔偿。如果致害人因生活窘迫无力赔偿，政府也可以考虑设立意外伤害基金。

Accident harm caused by others if，In accordance with the requirements of harm to should be civil compensation。If the harm for life distress unable to compensate for the loss，The government may also consider accident harm fund set up。

　　此外，还有医疗救助可以给予适当的援助，也可以通过慈善组织来实施相应的救助。不过，慈善救助因受财力与捐款人意愿的影响而并不具有可靠性。

In addition，And medical assistance can give appropriate aid，Can also through the charitable organization to the implementation of the corresponding relief。but，Charity relief funds and by the influence of donors will not reliable。

　　记者：新农合本月入下月就能享受，有人有侥幸心理，现在不入，有病再说，这咋办？个人责任应该如何促进履行？

reporter：New farming into this month and next month will be able to enjoy，Someone is fluky psychology，Now does not enter the，Sick again，To do this？Personal responsibility should be how to promote fulfilled？

　　郑功成：在社会保障体系完善的过程中，这样的行为叫做道德风险和逆选择，是确实存在的。规避这种情况，需要从完善制度和强化舆论引导等方面来促进个人责任的履行。

ZhengGongCheng：In the social security system in the process，Such behavior is called moral risk and adverse selection，Is really exist。Avoid this situation，Need to perfect the system and strengthening from public opinion guide to promote the performance of the personal responsibility。

　　从制度上讲，有的地方规定新农合一年缴费一次，或缴费满一定期限，才能享受医疗保障，有助于防止道德风险；不参加者或者不缴费者，便只能自己承担风险。

Speaking from the system，Some local regulation new farming in a union pay cost，Or capture is expended full time limit，To enjoy medical treatment safeguard，Help prevent moral hazard；Don't participants JiaoFeiZhe or not，He can only own risk。

　　媒体在宣传中，也应该加大对个人责任的宣传力度。(记者 丁汀)

The media in the campaign，Also should intensify the personal responsibility of publicity。(Reporter DingTing)