采访： 刘慧

interview: LiuHui

　　这篇专访成文于莫言获得2012年诺贝尔文学奖前夕，并得到了莫言的书面确认。这次的访问莫言道出了以往从不曾披露的真实经历和真切体会。

This article interview written in mo yan won the 2012 Nobel Prize for literature eve,And get the written confirmation of mo yan.This visit is what mo yan the previous never disclosure real experience and true experience.

读书少所以想象力发达 Reading less so imagination developed

　　我曾经半开玩笑、半认真地说，因为我读书比较少，所以我的想象力发达。如果我读上三十年的书成了硕士、博士，可能想象力要大打折扣。这个听起来是在调侃，实际上我觉得还是有一定道理的。小学五年级辍学，七八岁的孩子到田野里放牧牛羊，天天和牛羊在一起，很早就跟大自然打成一片，经常一个人独处，当时的胡思乱想现在看起来就是一种想象力的培养、开掘。很多时候我觉得就是超现实的一些想象，比如，突然看到一棵玉米，就感觉到这个玉米是能够跟人进行情感交流的，仿佛它可以说话，或者能听懂我的话语。有时候遇到一只小鸟，就在想这个附近肯定会有一窝，一找果然就能找到，有时候就是感觉特别准。

I have half kidding/Half said earnestly,Because I read less,So my imagination developed.If I read the thirty years of book became a master/doctor,May imagination to sell at a discount greatly.This sounds fun at,Actually I feel or a reason.In fifth grade school,Age of seven children into the fields and grazing cattle and sheep,Every day and cattle and sheep in together,Very early become one with nature,Often a man to be alone,The bosh now looks is a kind of imagination training/dig.Many times I think is surreal some imagination,For example,Suddenly see a tree corn,Just feel the corn is able to people of emotional communication,As if it can talk,Or can understand my words.Sometimes meet a little bird,Just think this there's sure to be a nest,It can find a find,Sometimes is to feel special quasi.

　　那时候自己独处时也不知道什么叫孤独，就是属于一个人的时间多，一个人的时候就是很害怕、很恐惧，感觉到很无聊，有时候也非常想跟人说话，想跟大人接触，想到人多的地方去，但是那个时候，不知道“孤独”这个名词，现在回头一想，确实是一种儿童的孤独感。儿童实际上就喜欢热闹，喜欢大人对他呵护，由于我们当时的社会环境和家庭条件，实际上很多孩子跟我一样都变得很孤独、很孤僻。

At that time when we are alone with his also don't know what is loneliness,Is to belong to a person's time,A person is very afraid/Very fear,Feel very boring,Sometimes really want to speak with people,Want to contact with adults,Think of many place,But at that time,Don't know"lonely"The term,Now back a want to,It is a children's loneliness.Children in fact like lively,Like the adult to his care,Because we were social environment and family condition,In fact many children like me have become very lonely/Very withdrawn.

　　小的时候我说的欲望是很强烈的，从小我特别喜欢说话。看到一点新奇的事物我就特别想传达给别人，比如，我突然看到这个地方有一只从来没见过的蚂蚱，颜色特别艳丽，个头特别大，那我就想让所有的人知道我看到了这样一只奇特的蚂蚱。有时候突然看到很远的地方冒出了黑烟，那我恨不得让全村的人都出来跟我一同分享看到的这个现象。再稍微大一点，去集市上听说书的，到生产队的饲养棚里听那些老人讲过去的故事，听了以后你就想对别人诉说，包括晚上母亲跟姐姐在油灯下做针线活的时候，我就对她们说，讲集上听到的说书人讲了什么，刚开始我母亲还很反感，后来渐渐地我发现她们听入神了，就让我一直讲，所以以后每到逢集的时候，母亲原来不允许我到集上去玩、去听书，后来也允许了，当然也因为不需要花钱，小孩嘛。后来发现别人总在夸奖，这个小孩记忆力真好，你看听一遍他能够叽里呱啦的基本大概不错地复述出来，小孩实际上就是喜欢被夸奖的，夸耀之后就是很得意的。再后来就是能够绘声绘色，有所发展、有所演绎，我想这是不是就是一种讲故事的才能，那时候已经冒出来点苗头了。

Small when I said desire is very strong,From childhood I especially like to talk.See some novel things I want to convey to others,For example,Suddenly I see this place have a have never seen boat,Color gorgeous special,Head particularly big,Then I want to let all people know that I see such a fancy boat.Sometimes suddenly see far away from the black smoke,That I can't wait to let the whole village turned out to share with me see this phenomenon.Again a little bit bigger,On his way to the market to hear the book,The production team feeding tent to listen to the old man told the story of the past,Listen to the later you will want to tell others,Including the mother in the evening with my sister in the light of the seamstress,I said to them,Speak set hear storytellers speak,Just start my mother is still very dislike,Gradually I found they listen to the preoccupation,Let I have been speaking,So every time after the market day,Mother didn't allow me to set up play/To TingShu,Then also allowed,Of course also because it does not need to spend money,children.I later found out that others always praise,The boy got a good memory,You see listen again he can in the ji's gung basic probably good to retell out,The child is actually like to be complimentary,After the glory is very proud.Then is able to vivid,Some development/Has developed,I wonder if that is a kind of storytelling can,At that time has come out to come to order the symptom.

　把自己当罪人来写作 Put yourself when sinners to writing

　　最新的小说《蛙》是一部开始执行自我批判的作品，我提出了一个文学实践的理念就是“把自己当罪人写”，为什么呢？追根溯源，我二十世纪八十年代初期在解放军艺术学院文学系读书的时候，当时就听很多的课，头脑中的文学观念发生了变化，变化以后就对我们过去的一些描写什么战争、历史的文学作品不满意，因为那里面的好人和坏人的界限非常清楚，好人几乎完美无缺，坏人几乎一无是处。我觉得这不符合生活的真相，如果真正要追求现实主义风格的话，应该是把好人当坏人写，把坏人当好人写。也就是说我们要把坏人和好人都当做人来写。因为我相信在这个世界上，没有彻头彻尾的坏人，也没有完美无缺的好人，人都有弱点，也都有优点。即便是一个恶魔，他也偶尔会有一丝善念，而这一丝善念恰好就是人性当中最令人感动的光芒。所以我当时就提出来，应该把坏人当好人写，把好人当坏人写，正因为有了这样一种文学观念的转变，才有了我后来一系列的作品。

The latest novel[frog]Is a began to carry out the works of self-criticism,I put forward a concept of literature practice is"His writing when sinners",why?Traced back,I was in the early 1980 s in the people's liberation army academy of art department of literature reading,Then listen to a lot of lessons,In the brains the literature concept changed,After the changes to our past some describe what war/The history of literary works not satisfied,For where the good and bad people boundaries is very clear,Good man almost perfect,Bad almost nothing.I think it does not accord with the truth of the life,If you really want to pursue the realistic style words,Should be the good man when bad writing,The bad man to write.This also means that we will put the bad and the good are as people to write.Because I believe in this world,No ingrained bad people,Also there is no perfect man,People have weaknesses,Also have the advantages.Even if it is a demon,He also occasionally there will be a good read,And this is just a good reading of human nature most moving light.So I was out,Should put the bad when people write,The good man when bad writing,It is exactly because we have had such a concept of literature transformation,Have I later a series of works.

　　我们几十年来，一直在把眼睛向外看，拿着放大镜在寻找他人身上的弱点，在寻找社会的阴暗面，当然这样写也不是不可以，可是我想如果一个人缺少一种解剖自我的勇气，缺少一种反省自我的能力，那么这个作家我觉得是不够的。我们天天说学习鲁迅，我们看到鲁迅的那种对外批评的犀利，那种尖刻，那种无所畏惧，但是我们往往对鲁迅的自我解剖的这种精神不太注意，鲁迅之所以是一个伟大的人，就是他在批判社会的时候，同时能够批判自然。后来很多作家也有这种能力，像巴金先生，到了他的晚年也提出了这种自我的批评，自我的反省。他人是罪人，我也有罪。就是我们这一代作家，必须把我们这些前辈们身上这种宝贵的素质继承下来。所以我提出了一个口号、一个观念，就是把自己当罪人来写，这样我想这个写作会进一步地深化，也可以让自己的写作重现一种新的面貌。

For decades we,Has been the eyes look outside,With a magnifying glass in the search for the weaknesses of others,In the search for the dark side of the society,Of course this is not can't write,But I think if a person lacks a anatomical self courage,The lack of a kind of reflection ability of self,So the writer I think is not enough.We say every day study lu xun,We see the kind of foreign criticism of lu xun's sharp,That kind of acrimony,That kind of fearless,But we often to lu xun's self anatomical this spirit don't pay much attention to,Lu xun was a great person,Is he in the criticism of society,At the same time can be critical natural.Later, many writers also have this ability,Like Mr. Ba jin,In his old age also puts forward the self criticism,Self reflection of.Others is a sinner,I also guilty.Is our this generation of writers,We must keep these elder people on the quality of this precious inherited.So I put forward a slogan/An idea,Is to make yourself when sinners to write,So I think this writing will further deepen,Also can let their own writing recreate a new look.

具体到“罪人”这两个字，我是 Specific to"sinners"The two words,I am

　　回头咀嚼一下《红高粱》 Back chew[Red sorghum]

　　现在看《红高粱》，第一个就是当时真敢写。现在带着一种技术的眼光来看，你会发现当时的那种道具，用词的大胆、野蛮，那种勇气是今天不具备的。我现在写得很规范，很符合语法，没有了当初对语言的挑战，也没想过创新，当时就感觉到只有这样写才过瘾，才能够表达我心中这种强烈的情绪。尽管我现在可以从《红高粱》里面读出很多弱点、毛病，但是让我再写《红高粱》，我写不出来了，再写也不是那样了，肯定是另外一个“红高粱”。

Now look at[Red sorghum],The first was that was really dare to write.Now take a technical point of view,You will find that at the time of that kind of property,Words bold/savage,That kind of courage is today does not have.Now I write very standard,Very accord with grammar,Not the original language to the challenge,Also never thought innovation,Then feel only wrote to satisfy,To express my heart this kind of intense emotion.Although I can now from[Red sorghum]It read many weaknesses/fault,But let me to write[Red sorghum],I can't write out,To write is not like that,Sure is another"Red sorghum".

　　当时对这种军事文学的创作，和我上军艺是有直接关系的，而且这个小说最初的写作动机也是因为参加了总政治部在西直门招待所开的一个军事文学创作座谈会，会上很多老作家、部队文艺界的领导提出来说，前苏联卫国战争打了四年，出现了五代写卫国战争的作家和卫国战争的文学，我们中国有这么长的新民主主义革命史，二十八年的战争历史，解放以后有这样那样的边境战争，为什么我们写不出自己的伟大的军事文学作品？然后他们就感慨，像一些老同志有战争经验、有这种生活，但因为“文革”把他们耽搁了，而现在的这些年轻人有精力，有创新的能力，有创新的精神，但是没有战争生活和体验。我当时就说，我们没有直接体验可以间接体验嘛，可以读你们的书、看图片，可以运用移情作用，比如我没有上战场杀过人，但是我杀过鸡，就可以把杀鸡的感觉移植到战争中去，我的这个说法让军队的好多老作家不以为然。

At that time to the military literature creation,And I was from goshawks have direct relations,And this novel initial writing motivation is also because took part in the general political department in xizhimen hostel open a military literature conversazione,Many old authors to meeting/Forces the leadership of literary and art circles for put forward,The former Soviet union patriotic war played in four years,Appeared five dynasties write patriotic war writer and patriotic war literature,We Chinese have such a long new-democratic revolution,28 years of war history,After liberation have this or that kind of border war,Why we can't write out their own great military literature?They then regrets,Like some old comrades have war experience/Have this kind of life,But because"Cultural revolution"Put them back,Now these young people have energy,Have the innovation ability,Have the innovation spirit,But there is no war life and experience.At the time I said,We have no direct experience of indirect experience can be well,Can read your books/Look at the picture,Can use empathy,For example, I did not have the battlefield killed people,But I killed a chicken,Can kill the goose feeling transplanted into war to,My that let a lot of the army of the old authors to disagree.

　　回来以后在上课的间隙里，我就跑到寝室坐在那个地方，披着大衣开始写，一个星期就出稿了。因为身在军艺所以写这部作品，当然它更深层就是说，军艺改变了我的文学观念，使我对过去书写的革命战争很不满意，过去的革命战争文学，往往就是把英雄写得太高大、太完美，把敌人写得太委琐，不但是内心肮脏，外貌也是极其丑陋，这是不真实的。因为我回老家去采访，无意中听老人聊天，他们讲到国军、八路的时候，说国军衣服都是美式的，很漂亮，而八路，土八路，国军的外貌比八路、比解放军都要漂亮，这才是真实的。装备也好、服装也好、吃得也好，因为当时政权、政府在他们手里。我们这代人应该正视历史，真正的战争文学在我们这一代手里要实现这种转变，所以《红高粱》也是这方面的一个尝试。

After come back in class in the gap,I went to the dormitory sitting in that place,Covered with coat began to write,A week went out of the draft.Because body in from goshawks so I write this work,Of course it is deeper,From goshawks changed my literary concept,Make me the past writing revolutionary war is not satisfied,The past revolutionary war literature,The hero is usually write too tall/perfect,The enemy to write too trifling,Don't but inner dirty,Appearance is very ugly,This is not true.Because I go home to interview,Accidentally overhearing the old person to chat,They talked about Chinese/When 8,Said Chinese clothes are American,Very beautiful,8 and,8 soil,The appearance of nations than 8/Than the people's liberation army will be beautiful,This is true.Equipment or/Clothing or/Eat or,Because at that time regime/The government in their hands.Our generation should face up to history,The real war literature in our generation hand to achieve this transformation,so[Red sorghum]Is this a try.

母亲流泪： Mother's tears:

　　因为我多算人家一毛钱 Because I calculate the somebody else a dime

　　我母亲就是一个不识字的农村妇女，但是我觉得她是有远大目光的人。我可能也受父亲的影响，父亲是读过私塾的人，是有文化的人。我记忆很深的就是在上世纪七十年代初，那个时候家庭生活很贫困，我的邻居有一个小伙子买了《中国通史简编》五册，大概是五块钱，那个时候五块钱真是不得了的一笔大钱，这个小伙子他家里没钱用了，问我要不要书，我回家跟我母亲商量，母亲说“你能保证读吗？”我说：“我保证看。”她说：“那好，就买了。”后来我当兵的时候，这套书一直背在身边，我那点最初的历史知识都是从这套书上学到的。再就是我要买纸、买笔、买墨水啊，她从来不会阻挠的。

My mother is a illiterate rural women,But I think she is a broad vision of the people.I may also be father's influence,Father is read private person,There is a culture.My memory is deep in the 1970 s,When the family life is very poor,My neighbor is a young man bought[China's general history lexicon]Five copies,About five dollars,When the five dollars j: a big money,The young man he doesn't have a home with the money,Q I want to book,I go home and my mother to consult,Mother said"Can you guarantee that reading?"I said:"I promise to see."She said:"The good,He bought."Then I when a soldier,This series has been back in the side,I the point first knowledge of history from the books to school.And I want to buy a paper/Buy pen/Buy ink ah,She never obstruct the.

　　我是姊妹四个，我大哥、还有两个姐姐，我是最小的。当时我们是个很大的家庭，叔叔他们家也没跟我们分家，上面爷爷奶奶、叔叔婶婶、堂兄弟们，我们家是一大群人，家里最多的时候十三口人，十三口人住着几间小房子，那种拥挤啊，那种吵闹啊，但是我母亲就是忍辱负重，她是长媳嘛，上边有老下边有小，关系很难处理，所以她就带头，非常地勤劳、任劳任怨。所以我说母亲身上体现了中国妇女所有的美德，当然很多人都会这么说自己的母亲。

My sister is four,My eldest brother/There are two sister,I was the youngest.At that time we are a big family,Uncle their home also didn't tell us housing,Grandma and grandpa above/Uncle aunt/The Cousins,Our family is a large group of people,Home most of the time 13 mouth people,Thirteen mouth people lived between a few small house,The crowded ah,The noisy ah,But my mother is humiliation,She is long, the widows,Above the old small,Relationship is difficult to deal with,So she will take the lead,Very industrious/Bears the burden of responsibility.So I said mother body embodies the Chinese women of all the virtues,Of course, many people will say so his mother.

　　我曾经写过一篇散文叫《卖白菜》，1969年左右的时候，我们家就种了大概很少几棵白菜吧，当时为了换一点零用钱过年，就要把三棵白菜卖掉。卖白菜的时候有一个很挑剔的老太太，嫌这个白菜外边的帮子太多，一层层地给扒了，然后称的时候，要那个秤杆很高很高的，后来终于买了一棵小白菜，然后让我算账，当时我隐隐约约地感觉到我算错了，当时算术也不好，后来就回家了。回家以后，我母亲很懊恼，说：“为什么要多算人家老太太一毛钱？让人找回来，很多人都在说，我非常难堪。”我母亲说让她感觉到极大的耻辱，这个儿子竟然多算人家一毛钱，赶快给人家赔礼道歉，那也是我看到坚强的母亲第一次流泪，这件事给我印象非常深刻，长大以后，经常会想起来，想起来内心就很沉痛，因为母亲从来很少流眼泪，她是很坚强的女性。因为这件事，因为儿子这种恶劣的行为，让她的自尊受了巨大的伤害。我看后来的很多中学语文课本，都把这篇散文收了进去。其实是关于一个孩子从小教育的问题，一个道德的问题，关于做人的一些基本的准则。我想母亲也未必能够说出多么深刻的道理来，她说你这个事你做得不对，你不能多算人家的，你买卖不成仁义在，你可以不卖给她，她扒白菜帮子你可以骂她，不卖给她就是，但你不能用这样的方式来多算她一毛钱。

I once wrote an essay called[Sell cabbage],1969 years time,Our house is kind of about a few tree, Chinese cabbage,In order to change a little pocket money at New Year's day,Will the three trees sell cabbage.Sell cabbage when there is a very picky old lady,Don't think this Chinese cabbage onto the outside too much,Layer by layer to the steak,Then say when,Want the balance beam high,Then finally bought a tree pakchoi,Then let me settle accounts,At that time I feel it in the air I wrong,When arithmetic is bad also,Then went home.After coming home,My mother is very upset,said:"Why to calculate the somebody else old lady a dime?Let a person to find,A lot of people are talking,I was very embarrassed."My mother said that she felt great shame,This son unexpectedly many calculate the somebody else a dime,Hurry to the somebody else offer an apology,That is I saw strong mother first tears,It give me is very impressive,Grow up,Often think up,Want to up the heart is very painful,Because mother has very few tears,She is a very determined woman.Because it,Because son this bad behavior,Let her self-esteem received the great harm.I see later many middle school Chinese textbook,This essay is received in.It is about a child education problems,A moral problem,About a some basic criterion.I think mother also may not be able to tell what a profound truth to,She said you the things you didn't do it right,Can't you calculate the somebody else's,You can trade in righteousness,You may not sell her,She chop lettuce onto you can scold her,Don't sell she is,But you should not use this way to calculate her more than a dime.