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包墨凯:确保伦敦不被“边缘化”--亲稳网络舆情监控室
2012-07-20
专访伦敦金融城政策与资源委员会主席包墨凯 Interview with the London financial city policy and resources committee chairman bag ink kay
杨燕青 严婷
YangYanQing YanTing
[ 成为国际金融中心很重要的关键问题是法制、监管机构的效率和能力、不歧视 ]
[as an international financial centre is very important is the key problem of the rule of law、Regulatory efficiency and ability、No discrimination]
“我来到上海的第一印象是,上海机场(600009,股吧)比希斯罗机场好多了,这是毫无疑问的。”今年5月刚刚履新的伦敦金融城政策与资源委员会主席包墨凯(Mark Boleat)在上海接受《第一财经日报》独家专访时,对上海赞不绝口。
“I came to Shanghai is the first impression,Shanghai airport(600009,Shares it)Than heathrow better,There's no doubt about that。”In may this year, just the newly city policy and resources committee chairman bag ink kay(Mark Boleat)In Shanghai to accept《The first financial daily》Exclusive interview with,Praise to Shanghai。
2012年的伦敦让人充满憧憬。除了众所周知的奥运会外,伦敦还在试图成为人民币国际市场的“西方中心”,与香港和其他金融中心相辅相成。这是包墨凯上任以来的一大工作重心。
2012 years of London let people full of dreams。Besides the well-known outside of the Olympic Games,London is trying to become the international market“Western center”,And Hong Kong and other financial center supplement each other。This is the bag of since taking office kay ink a big focus。
与此同时,尽管不断推陈出新与时俱进,作为老牌国际金融中心的伦敦,却在欧盟一体化进程中陷入了有些尴尬的境地:既不愿参与一体化进程,又担忧被边缘化和话语权失落。不过包墨凯却并不认为伦敦会被边缘化,更何况欧盟一体化形势都还远未明朗。
At the same time,Although constantly advancing with The Times,As a veteran international financial centre of London,But in the European Union in the process of integration in some embarrassing situation:Would not participate in the process of integration,And fears were marginalized and discourse lost。But don't think kay bag ink will be marginalized in London,Besides the eu integration situation are far from clear。
但他坦言,短期内令他最头疼的有两件事:除了应对巴克莱银行的利率操纵问题,就是密切关注欧盟层面上发生的变化,确保英国不被边缘化。
But he said,In the short-term his most headache of two things:In addition to cope with the barclays bank interest rate control problem,Is pay close attention to the changes of the eu level,Ensure that Britain is not being marginalized。
不参与欧洲银行业联盟 Don't participate in the European banking alliance
第一财经日报:欧盟首脑们正在推进银行业联盟和财政联盟。有趣的是,英国首相卡梅伦(David Cameron)在去年9月对财政契约投了反对票,这被视为英国对欧盟一体化进程选择了退出。但卡梅伦的政策事实上并没有得到金融城的支持。所以在参加本次欧盟峰会之前,卡梅伦向金融城做了咨询。这一次你向他提了哪些建议呢?
The first financial daily:European Union leaders are promoting banking federation and finance alliance。Interesting is,British prime minister Cameron(David Cameron)In September last year to financial contract voted against the proposal.,This is regarded as the process of integration for Britain chose exit。But Mr Cameron policy in fact and don't get the support of the city。So in the European Union summit to attend this before,Cameron to the city did consulting。This time you to him about what advice do?
包墨凯:去年12月英国政府所做的是对监管和政治特定情况的迅速反应。众所周知的是,他们甚至都没有在政府内部密切讨论过这个问题,当然更不可能与其他国家政府友好地讨论。这也是为何他们显得有些孤立了。政府当时称这是为了保护伦敦金融城,而他们最近已表明,一部分原因也是为了对金融城采取比其他任何地方更严厉的监管。所以总体来说,我并不认为这是一项成就,尽管对政府而言在政治上奏效了,但我认为这可能会对我们与欧洲的关系造成一定程度的伤害。在过去数月中,金融城的各大金融机构和政府之间增加了互动,因而政府能够更好地了解伦敦真正需要的是什么,不仅是出于伦敦的利益,更是从整个国家利益出发。
Bag ink kay:Last December the British government do specific regulatory and political the rapid response。It is well known that,They had not even in the internal government close to discuss about the problem,Of course the more impossible and other governments friendly discussion。This is why they seem to be some isolated。The government said at the time this is to protect the city of London,And they recently has showed,Part of the reason for the city to take than any other place more stringent regulation。So in general,I don't think this is an achievement,Although for the government to work in politics,But I think it might have on the relationship between the us and Europe caused a degree of damage。In the past few months,The city of major financial institutions and the government increased interaction between,And the government better to understand the London really needs is the??????,Not only is from London's interests,More from the whole country interests。
日报:在欧洲银行业联盟中,伦敦在其中扮演怎样的角色?你希望伦敦能够加强在整个欧洲银行业监管体系中的话语权,但这或许会很困难。
daily:In the European banking in the league,London what role in it?You hope to strengthen the London for the whole of the European banking supervision system of the right,But it may be very difficult。
包墨凯:是很困难。首先,毋庸置疑的是,伦敦不会成为银行业联盟的一部分,这是目前毫无争议的。但我们和政府的立场是,这不会影响到欧盟单一市场,而整个监管框架也必须让所有欧盟成员国都参与进来,欧元区17个成员国会像一个国家一样进行银行业监管。尽管英国不是欧元区成员,但伦敦一直以来都是欧元交易的主要金融中心,当然也是美元的交易中心,我们希望伦敦能够继续维持这样的地位,无论欧元区情况如何。
Bag ink kay:Is very difficult。first,There is no doubt that is,London won't be part of the banking industry alliance,This is the current without controversy。But we and the position of government is,It does not affect the eu single market,And the whole regulatory framework must also make all eu member states are involved,The eurozone 17 members of congress as a country as the banking supervision。Although Britain is not the eurozone members,But London has been the main financial center euro transactions,Of course is also the dollar trade center,We hope that we can continue to London maintain such a position,No matter how the euro zone。
日报: 在近日发表的文章中,英国副首相克莱格(Nick Clegg)表达了对英国在欧盟一体化进程中被边缘化的担忧。你对此是否有同感?
daily: In the recently published articles,British deputy prime minister Craig(Nick Clegg)Expressed in the European Union Britain in the process of integration was marginalized concerns。Whether you are the same?
包墨凯:是的,这正是伦敦所担忧的。但我们并不认为伦敦会被边缘化,欧洲多数主要金融机构在伦敦都有大量业务,例如德意志银行的投资银行就在伦敦运营,他们也会密切关注让英国被欧盟决策排挤在外的任何事件。当然,英国也有一些人认为,被欧盟边缘化反而是好事,因为这样我们既能按照自己的思路发展,又能照常营业。但这个问题没有正确答案,一切取决于事态发展。
Bag ink kay:yes,This is London is concerned。But we do not believe that London will be on edge,Most European major financial institutions in London has a lot of business,Such as deutsche bank's investment bank in London operation,They will also pay close attention to let Britain is the eu decision crowd out of any event。Of course,Britain also have some people think,The marginalized by the instead is a good thing,Because of this we can according to the development of his thoughts,And to business as usual。But the problem is not the right answer,Everything depends on this development。
日报:但随着欧洲进一步一体化,在欧盟决策过程中,英国必须在参与决策和游离于欧元区之外这两者之间寻找一种微妙的平衡。这非常困难。
daily:But with the further integration in Europe,In the European Union in the decision-making process,Britain must participate in the decision and free in the euro zone between the outside looking for a delicate balance。It is very difficult。
包墨凯:这实属不易。但我认为目前形势还远未明朗,欧元区17个国家是否真的会愿意将主权进一步转移到欧盟层面上还不得而知。
Bag ink kay:This is not easy。But I think the situation is far from clear,The eurozone 17 countries really will be willing to sovereignty will be transferred to the eu further level is still unknown。
日报:转移主权对英国来说很困难,但对希腊来说相对容易。
daily:Transfer of sovereignty Britain it is difficult,But for Greece is relatively easy。
包墨凯:在目前的状况下,是的。但如果考虑整个欧盟各个国家的不同情况,从罗马尼亚到德国,是否能够自然形成一个政治联盟?即使拿葡萄牙、西班牙与德国相比,也存在经济上的巨大差异。在两个养老金制度迥异的国家,一个退休年龄是55岁,另一个是65岁,后者却要像前者那样财政转移,这是无法建立政治联盟的。所有类似问题都要仔细想清楚。
Bag ink kay:In the present condition,yes。But if consider throughout the European Union countries of the different situations,From Romania to Germany,Whether can be natural form a political alliance?Even if take Portugal、Spain and Germany compared,There are also great economic differences。In two different pension system of the country,A retirement age is 55,The other one is 65 years old,The latter will like the former that financial transfer,It is impossible to build political union。All such problems have to be carefully want to clear。
日报:如果欧洲越来越走向一体化并且越来越强大,英国是否会考虑加入其中,甚至最终会考虑加入欧元区?
daily:If Europe more to the integration and more and more powerful,Britain will consider whether to join them,Even eventually will consider joining the euro?
包墨凯:我不认为有任何人预期英国会在可预见的未来加入欧元区。当然,如果事态发生剧变,任何事情都有可能发生。但在10年前,这确实是真实的预期,英国做了很多工作而且对此有过激烈争论。但现在对此已经毫无争议了。
Bag ink kay:I don't think anyone expected Britain can be in the foreseeable future to join the euro zone。Of course,If things change greatly,Anything is possible。But 10 years ago,This is really true expectations,Britain did a lot of work and have a fierce debate。But now that's been without controversy。
日报:这是因为欧元区发生了危机。但或许等危机过后英国会改变想法?
daily:This is because the euro zone crisis happened。But perhaps, after the crisis will change Britain?
包墨凯:我相信欧元区危机总会过去。但目前在保守党内部有很大一批人想要对英国的欧盟身份进行全民公投。英国和欧洲之间的相处一直很难。我们认为商业是维系关系的重要纽带,但公众的态度就有所不同。
Bag ink kay:I believe that the euro zone crisis will go through。But at present, the conservative party in a large group of people inside to want to Britain as the eu referendum。Britain and Europe has been difficult to get along with between。We think the commercial is an important link to relate,But the public's attitude is different。
操纵Libor事件伤害了整个银行业 Manipulate Libor events hurt the whole banking
日报:在金融危机之后,英国政府加强了金融监管改革。你如何看待英国独立银行业委员会主席约翰·维克斯(John Vickers)提出的“围栏改革”计划?这是否会影响到英国银行业在欧洲和全球的竞争力?
daily:After the financial crisis,British government strengthen the financial regulatory reform。How do you think about British independent banking committee chairman John d cox(John Vickers)The proposed“Fence reform”plan?It would affect to the British banking in Europe and global competitiveness?
包墨凯:政府已经决定实施这一计划。我们已经表达过我们的担忧,要求政府考虑到这项计划对英国经济整体竞争力,以及让大型金融机构留在伦敦的吸引力产生的影响。而政府最近发布的提案显示,他们已经尽力来缓解这些担忧。尤其值得一提的是,维克斯规则不再适用于多数跨国银行。目前的维克斯规则对银行业的影响并不像原本可能的那么大了。政府听取了一些大型金融机构的意见,毕竟这需要银行业提高资本,工作量也很大。
Bag ink kay:The government has decided to carry out the plan。We have expressed our concerns,For the government to consider the plan to the UK economy overall competitiveness,And let the large financial institutions remain in London attractive influence。The government recently announced that the proposal,They have tried to to ease these concerns。What be worth to be carried particularly is,D cox rules no longer applies to most international Banks。The dimensions of the present rules for the banking industry's influence is not, as was possible so big。The government listened to some large financial institutions opinion,After all, the need to raise capital banking industry,Workload is very big also。
日报:最近伦敦发生的一个重大事件是巴克莱首席执行官鲍勃·戴蒙德(Bob Diamond)操纵伦敦银行同业拆借利率(Libor),无数人已卷入其中。他和摩根大通首席执行官杰米·戴蒙(Jamie Dimon)曾被视为金融危机中不败的两位英雄,但现在都倒下了。这意味着银行业名誉的终结吗?
daily:In London recently a major event is barclays chief executive Bob diamond,(Bob Diamond)Manipulate the London interbank offered rate(Libor),Many people have been involved。He and jpmorgan chase CEO jamie Johnny Damon(Jamie Dimon)Once considered a financial crisis in the unbeaten two heroes,But now all went down。This means the end of banking reputation?
包墨凯:并非如此,而且我也不认为人们把他们当作“英雄”。如果你看一下英国银行业,例如汇丰和渣打银行,在危机中虽然受到了影响,但都安然无恙。巴克莱银行也没有大问题,他们并没有像苏格兰皇家银行那样的贷款质量问题。摩根大通和巴克莱遇到的问题截然不同,摩根大通只是下错了赌注,而不是有人欺诈,内部风控做得不够好。但因为这是金融机构,所以引起市场哗然,但房地产开发商也可能会因为在错误的时间进入错误的市场而损失巨大。而巴克莱的问题,不仅存在于巴克莱,涉及这样行为的银行达到了15家左右,这已经是一个系统性问题了。
Bag ink kay:Is not so,And I don't think people see them as“hero”。If you look at the British banking industry,Such as HSBC and standard chartered bank,In a crisis even though have been affected,But are safe。Barclays bank also no big problem,They did not like the royal bank of Scotland that loan quality problems。Jpmorgan chase and barclays problems are quite different,Jpmorgan chase is the wrong bets,And not someone fraud,The internal control isn't good enough。But because this is the financial institutions,So cause market soured,But the real estate developers may also be because in the wrong time to enter the market and lost a lot of mistakes。And the problem of barclays,Exists not only in barclays,The bank ACTS like this involved to around 15 companies,This is a systemic problem。
日报:如果这是系统性的,那就更危险了。
daily:If it is systematic,That is more dangerous。
包墨凯:是的,戴蒙德认识到了这一危害性,因为这对巴克莱的损害很大。而且还有其他一些银行也这么做。这对整个银行业都带来了伤害,银行业可能需要很长时间来说服人们相信他们已经克服了这些问题,这可能需要5年甚至更长时间。
Bag ink kay:yes,Diamond acknowledges the dangers,Because of the damage to the barclays is very large。And there are other Banks to do so。The whole banking with the damage,The banking industry may take a long time to convince people to believe that they have overcome these problems,This may need five years or longer。
日报:总体而言,你认为英国的金融业在这次金融危机中发生了多大的变化?
daily:overall,Do you think British financial industry in this financial crisis happened many changes?
包墨凯:我们采取了更有效的监管措施来防止银行业的不良贷款和冒险行为。一些人会说,有效监管和优质贷款受到了影响,但这也是不可避免的。
Bag ink kay:We adopted a more effective regulatory measures to prevent banking bad loans and risk-taking。Some people will say,The effective supervision and high quality loans have been affected,But this is inevitable。
日报:所以像维克斯规则这样的监管措施也许是不可避免的?
daily:So like d cox rules such supervision measures may be inevitable?
包墨凯:维克斯规则并不是关于借贷的,而仅仅是将两种银行业务隔离开来。但即使在维克斯规则的“围栏”之内,北岩银行(Northern Rock)的情况照样会发生。很难说一种行为是绝对安全的,而另一种行为是绝对危险的。例如,借贷给希腊可以是危险的,而交易公司债券就可能是安全的。任何银行活动是否安全取决于具体做法。
Bag ink kay:D cox rules is not about the lending,And it is only two kinds of banking isolated。But even in d cox rules“fence”within,Northern rock bank(Northern Rock)So the situation will happen。It's hard to say a kind of behavior is absolutely safe,And another kind of behavior is absolutely dangerous。For example,Lending to Greece can be dangerous,And corporate bonds may be safe。Any bank security depends on whether the activities concrete methods。
日报:那么我们如何更好地借贷?
daily:So how are we better lending?
包墨凯:经验表明,良好的借贷需要理解风险。一些坏的贷款之所以产生,一方面可能因为对风险理解不够,另一方面也可能是因为银行内部缺乏机制来防止发放贷款对放贷者本身会带来利益,从而导致银行只注重短期利益而忽视了长期后果。我知道美国次贷危机产生的一大原因就是放贷者本身虽知道风险但置若罔闻,即使知道一笔贷款不可能收回也依然会发放,因为这些贷款总是有人愿意购买而他们又能够从放贷中收取佣金。因此错就错在购买那些贷款的人,而不是发放贷款的人。
Bag ink kay:Experience shows that,Good lending need to understand the risks。Some bad loans are generated,On the one hand may be because of inadequate understanding risk,On the other hand also may be because of the lack of mechanism to prevent the internal bank loans to lenders itself will benefit them,Leading to bank paying attention only to short-term benefits and ignore the long-term consequences。I know the U.S. subprime mortgage crisis produce one big reason is lenders itself is know risk but not listen,Even know a loan may not withdraw will still be issued,Because these loans there's always someone willing to buy and they can lend again from a commi ion。So what is wrong is to buy those loans,And not lending。
十年后人民币会成为全球主要货币 After 10 years in the yuan could become the major currencies
日报:伦敦成为人民币离岸交易中心的计划很大程度上取决于中国政府的相关政策。金融城是否会积极呼吁中国政府继续放开政策,还是只打算做好自己的工作并静观其变?
daily:London as an offshore RMB trading center plan depends largely on the Chinese government policy。If the city will actively call on the Chinese government to continue to let go of policy,Or just going to do my job and their noses?
包墨凯:我不认为中国政府会对伦敦金融城或英国政府的指手画脚做出回应。伦敦作为人民币交易中心的发展路径将跟随中国和中国香港方面的政策。我们现在正在做的,包括发布有关人民币市场的报告,是为了更好地了解这个市场,帮助其成长。中国政府需要获得最充分的信息来决定下一步怎么走。他们能做的是设定规则和参数、放开对资本流动的管制等,并解决陆续出现的问题。所以我们不是在教育任何人,而是在满足一种市场需求,这种需求很大程度上取决于中国政府。
Bag ink kay:I don't think that the Chinese government would be the British government to London city or the hand painting feet to respond。London as the yuan trading center path will follow China and Hong Kong, China's policies。We are now doing,Including the market on the report,To better understand the market,Help their growth。The Chinese government needs to get the most sufficient information to decide how to get the next step。They can do is set the rules and parameters、Let go of on capital flows control,And solve the problems in succession。So we are not in the education of anyone,But in the meet a market demand,This demand depends largely on the Chinese government。
日报:对于伦敦发展人民币交易中心的计划,你是否有一个具体的时间表或者路线图?
daily:For the London development RMB trading center plan,Do you have a specific timetable or the roadmap?
包墨凯:我们不做这方面的路线图。伦敦已经是一个人民币中心了,人们可以在伦敦交易人民币,只是还没有达到我们理想的程度。举例来说,如果利物浦有一家企业想要购买上海的货物,他们希望以人民币计价,然后去利物浦的一家银行咨询是否可以,银行很可能会告诉他们“不行”,而我们希望能做到的事情是让银行说“可以”。这样的情况会越来越多,各家银行的节奏和交易量不一样,但我们看到这正在发生。
Bag ink kay:We don't do this aspect of the roadmap。London is a RMB center,People can be in London trading yuan,Just haven't reached the extent of our ideal。For example,If Liverpool have a enterprise want to purchase the goods in Shanghai,They hope to the renminbi,And then to Liverpool a bank can seek advice to whether,The bank is likely to tell them“no”,And we hope that we can do is to let the bank said“can”。This situation will be more,The rhythm of the Banks and trading volumes,But we see this is happening。
日报:如何看待伦敦和香港人民币市场方面的关系?
daily:How to look at London and Hong Kong RMB market of relationships?
包墨凯:我们已经表明,伦敦不会试图复制香港目前的清算安排等机制,这些安排都很有效。我们的目标是成为西方的人民币交易中心。但市场会发展,如果你是市场领军者,你总会试图维持领先地位,除非香港放弃,但我相信不会。我们认为伦敦与香港的关系是互补、互相促进的。
Bag ink kay:We have shown that,London will not try to copy of the liquidation of the Hong Kong's current arrangements mechanism,These arrangements are very effective。Our goal is to be the western yuan trading center。But the market will development,If you are a market leader,You will always trying to maintain leading position,Unless Hong Kong give up,But I don't believe that。We think that the relationship between London and Hong Kong are complementary、Promote each other。
日报:你如何看待人民币未来在国际货币体系中的地位,十年后,人民币是否会成为全球主要货币之一?
daily:How do you think about the future of the status in the international monetary system,After ten years,Whether or not the RMB will become one of the major global currency?
包墨凯:很有可能。人民币已经是主要货币之一了,但是否会成为全球储备货币,这是另一个问题,这必须等到人民币实现完全自由兑换之后。成为储备货币的关键一点是,货币不能被操纵。一年之前,外界普遍认为人民币被操纵而且显著低估,但现在已经基本达到了均衡水平。如果人民币在海外市场上交易量很大的话,中国政府是很难操纵货币的。但你要知道,所有政府几乎都会想方设法影响货币,包括瑞士政府。
Bag ink kay:Very likely。The yuan has been one of the major currencies,But will it become the global reserve currency,This is another question,This must wait until the yuan convertible after achieving complete。Become the key point is the reserve currency,Money is not to be manipulated。A year before,The widespread view that the yuan is significantly undervalued and manipulation,But now has basically reaching equilibrium level。If the yuan in the overseas markets very high volume,The Chinese government is hard to manipulate the currency。But you have to know,Almost all the government will try to influence the currency,Including the Swiss government。
另一个相关但不同的问题是,成为国际金融中心很重要的关键问题是法制、监管机构的效率和能力、不歧视。但现在中国对非本土机构还存在一些普遍的歧视做法,随着中国的发展,这一点必须改变。很多人问我有关港交所收购伦敦金属交易所(LME)的事情是否会受到英国政府的干涉,我告诉他们,这与政府毫不相干,因为政府在其中并不涉及到任何利益关系,无论收购者是否来自中国,只要“适合且适当”(fit and proper)即可。
Another related but different problem is,As an international financial centre is very important is the key problem of the rule of law、Regulatory efficiency and ability、No discrimination。But now China still has some common nativistic institutions discrimination against the practice,Along with the development of China,This must change。A lot of people ask me about Hong Kong exchange purchase the London metals exchange(LME)Whether the thing will be affected by the British government intervention,I told them,It is nothing with the government,Because the government in which would not involve any interests,No matter whether investors from China,As long as“And appropriate for”(Fit and proper)can。
日报:你认为中央银行的独立性是否非常重要?
daily:Do you think that the central bank independence is very important?
包墨凯:在英国也有这样的讨论,有人说英国央行太独立以至于失败。在金融危机期间,独立的央行会说“我们担忧通胀,危机与我们无关”。这在英国引起了很多问题。所以在如今的体系里,央行依然独立,但在关键问题上依然会发挥作用。现在人们普遍认为,央行是不可能完全独立的,但管理央行的人必须让外界足够相信,他们不会对政府唯命是从,更不会中饱私囊,所作所为应该符合其职责范围。
Bag ink kay:In the UK there have also been discussed,Some say the bank of England too independent that failure。During the financial crisis,Independent central bank will said“Inflation worries us,The crisis has nothing to do with us”。This has caused a lot of problems in the UK。So in today's system,The central bank is independent,But in the key problem will still play a role。It is widely believed that,The central bank is not be completely independent,But the central bank must make management outside enough believe,They will not government pocket,More won't feather their nest,Should be in accordance with its responsibilities did。
日报:目前最让你头疼的是什么事情?
daily:At present the most let you have a headache is what thing?
包墨凯:短期内我们最头疼的是应对巴克莱的利率操纵问题。未来数周内要密切关注欧盟层面上发生的变化,理解这些变化对英国的影响,而且要尽力施加我们自己的影响力,确保英国不会被边缘化。
Bag ink kay:In the short term we most headache is coping with the interest rate of barclays control problem。The next few weeks to pay close attention to the changes of the eu level,Understanding these changes influence in Britain,And to try to put our own influence,Ensure that Britain will not be on edge。
日报:你想要对中国的领导人传递怎样的信息?
daily:You want to Chinese leaders what kind of information transfer?
包墨凯:中国经济取得了巨大成就,而你们能在还未完全实现市场化的情况下取得如此显著的成就,这是很了不起的。一个关键问题是,中国政府需要决定他们究竟要将自由化进行到多大程度。中国的大型银行还是国有的,非市场化的利率使得这些银行轻易获得了巨额利润。这是中国政府需要做出的重要决定。
Bag ink kay:China's economy has been a huge success,And you can not fully realized in the market won so notable achievements,This is a big deal。One key issue,The Chinese government will need to decide whether they want to be free to the extent。China's large Banks or state-owned,The market interest rates make these bank easily won the huge profits。This is the Chinese government need to make important decisions。
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