专访英国ICB主席约翰·维克斯爵士 Interviews with British ICB President John d sir alex

　　[ 在维克斯看来，银行需要一个“双保险战略”：在拥有更安全结构的同时，还要强调资本充足率和杠杆率的重要性。但安全的银行结构，并不意味着“全能银行”的终结——对于对“全能银行”一直心存芥蒂的中国银行监管者而言，这不失为一个值得倾听的角度 ] [in the d cox opinion，Banks need a“Double insurance strategy”：Have more security structure in at the same time，We should emphasize capital adequacy ratio and the importance of the leverage ratio。But the security bank structure，Does not mean that“Almighty bank”-for the end of the right“Almighty bank”Always be bad feelings of bank regulators in China，This can yet be regarded as a worth listening to the point of view of the]

　　针对目前大西洋(600558,股吧)两岸都处在风口浪尖上的银行业监管改革，美国的“沃尔克规则”和英国的“维克斯框架”似乎正难分高下。不过，在名声大噪的“沃尔克规则”一再被推迟实施的时候，颇为低调的“维克斯框架”在大西洋彼岸已经进入了“实操阶段”。

In the Atlantic ocean(600558,Shares it)Both sides in the two-decade-long banking regulatory reforms，The United States“Volcker rule”And British“D cox framework”Seems to be uphill。but，In the famous“Volcker rule”The continuing delay the implementation，Very low-key“D cox framework”On the other side of the Atlantic has entered“Solid exercise stage”。

　　“我并不希望这个建议被称为"规则"，其实它更像是一个框架。”在英国政府公布其实施框架的第二天，英国独立银行业委员会（ICB）主席约翰·维克斯爵士（Sir John Vickers）在法兰克福接受了《第一财经日报》的独家专访。

“I don't hope that the proposal is called"rules"，Actually it is more like a framework。”In the British government announced its implementation framework of the second day，British independent banking commission（ICB）President John d sir alex（Sir John Vickers）In Frankfurt accepted《The first financial daily》The exclusive interviews with。

　　由维克斯爵士提出的所谓“维克斯框架”，与限制自营交易的“沃尔克规则”有同样的初衷，但英国走的是一条不同的道路：竖起“藩篱”（ring fence），将零售银行业务与其他业务隔离开来。

Sir alex put forward by d of so-called“D cox framework”，And the limit of proprietary trading“Volcker rule”Have the same purpose，But Britain is on a different path：Perked up“barriers”（Ring fence），Will retail banking business and other business isolated。

　　在维克斯看来，银行需要一个“双保险战略”：在拥有更安全结构的同时，还要强调资本充足率和杠杆率的重要性。但安全的银行结构，并不意味着“全能银行”的终结——对于对“全能银行”一直心存芥蒂的中国银行监管者而言，这不失为一个值得倾听的角度。

In d cox opinion，Banks need a“Double insurance strategy”：Have more security structure in at the same time，We should emphasize capital adequacy ratio and the importance of the leverage ratio。But the security bank structure，Does not mean that“Almighty bank”-for the end of the right“Almighty bank”Always be bad feelings of bank regulators in China，This can yet be regarded as a worth listening to the Angle。

　　有意思的是，这位曾任英国央行首席经济学家和货币政策委员会成员，并在英国牛津大学任教近二十年的维克斯爵士，显然具有学术式的超级严谨——他提出审看本文的英文稿。于是，在刊发前，除了照例的英译中，我们还经历了听写英文的别样体验。

Interesting is，The former central bank chief economist and created the monetary policy committee members，And in the Oxford University nearly 20 years of d sir alex，Obviously has the academic type of super strict-he put forward the view of this paper English draft。so，Published in before，In addition to English translation of the specified，We also experienced the dictation of English any experience。

　

　自营交易难界定 Proprietary trading difficult to define

　　第一财经日报：你提到了维克斯规则和沃尔克规则的区别，这两个规则哪一个对银行业和实体经济带来的成本更大？

The first financial daily：You mentioned the d cox rules and volcker rule difference，The two rules which one banking and real economy brings more of the cost？

　　维克斯：这很难说，ICB的提议在某种程度上比沃尔克规则更进一步，因为ICB建议中要求零售银行不能涉足的业务范围更广；但从另一种角度而言，它又不像沃尔克规则那么激进，因为我们认为一些金融活动可以在整个银行的其他部门进行，只要不在银行的零售部门。我们的提议在很多方面对于强化金融稳定具有更大作用，因为有助于避免更广泛的风险。

D cox：It's hard to say，The proposal of the ICB in some degree on further than the volcker rule，Because the ICB suggested retail bank off-limits requirement in the scope of business of more widely；But from another perspective，It is not like volcker rule so radical，Because we think some financial activities can be in the whole banking's other departments，As long as the bank is not in the retail sector。Our proposal in many ways to strengthen financial stability has a bigger role，For more extensive helps to avoid the risks。

　　但是两者哪个成本更高的问题很难回答，你必须在美国银行体系的背景下去理解沃尔克规则。美国已经对银行进行了结构性监管，如果只执行沃尔克规则而没有配套体系为起点，就可能会有问题。

But both which costs higher question is difficult to answer，You must be in the us banking system background down understand volcker rule。The United States has to bank on the structural oversight，If only executes volcker rule and not supporting system as a starting point，Is there may be a problem。

　　日报：你是说维克斯规则对市场和银行业的影响可能更大？

daily：Are you saying d cox to the market and banking rules of influence may be even greater？

　　维克斯： 我只能说英国的起点和问题都与美国不同。英国银行业的资产负债表比GDP大整整5倍，但美国银行业的这一比例差不多是1。我们有些银行的资产负债表甚至超过了英国GDP，但在美国，即便是花旗银行也只有GDP总额的1/8~1/7。尽管不再执行格拉斯-斯蒂格尔法案（Glass-Steagall Act ）已有10年多，但美国还是有一些监管条例的，而沃尔克规则、多德-弗兰克法案等都是监管体系的一部分。

D cox： I can only say that Britain's starting point and questions are different from the United States。Britain's banking industry, the balance sheet of GDP for five times more than large，But the us banking that number is almost 1。We have some bank balance sheets and even more than the British GDP，But in the United States，Even if is citigroup also only 1/8 ~ 1/7 of the total GDP。Although no longer conduct glass-steagall（Glass-Steagall Act ）For 10 years，But the United States still have some regulations，And the volcker rule、Chris dodd-frank bill is part of the regulatory system。

　　另外，沃尔克规则很难执行。保罗·沃尔克最初提出的建议其实在一定程度上已经被国会弱化。其后的问题是：如何执行? 这里有个很难划清的界限就是“自营交易”。在某种意义上，做市(Market Making)行为本身就是自营交易，尽管在很多情况下做市是替客户所做。如果在银行集团内禁止所有的自营活动，那会非常激进。所以将来可能出现的一个情景是，监管者对巴克莱银行说：“不行，你的零售银行不能做这项业务，但在整个集团你可以做。”这不同于沃尔克规则的“不行，你完全不能做”。

In addition，Volcker rule is hard to do。Paul volcker first proposed suggestion in fact in a certain extent has been weakening congress。Subsequent problem is：How to implement? Here is a difficult to make clear the limit is“Proprietary trading”。In a sense，Do city(Market Making)Behavior itself is proprietary trading，Even though in many cases do city for customers do is。If the bank group is prohibited in the proprietary all activities，That's a radical。So the future could bring a scene is，Regulators in the barclays bank said：“no，You can't do the retail banking business，But in the whole group you can do。”This is different from the volcker rule“no，You completely can't do”。

　　日报：的确，界定“自营交易”并不容易。我问过沃尔克先生本人，他说：“银行家自己应该明白哪些是自营交易，而哪些不是。” 尽管他的回答很聪明，但我赞同你的观点。

daily：indeed，define“Proprietary trading”Is not easy。I asked Mr Volcker himself，He said：“Bankers themselves should understand that what is proprietary trading，And what is not。” Although he said was very clever，But I agree with your point of view。

　　维克斯： 其实我很赞同沃尔克规则的精神。但很明显，有些交易的确处于自营和非自营的灰色地带。我们不妨回头看看亚当·斯密在这个问题上的看法，他曾探讨过为客户和自己盈利两者的关系。即使银行家自己很清楚两者的区别，但监管者却很难确定。以摩根大通的对冲为例，我并不是这方面的专家，但这是个很好的例子：这是自营交易，还是对冲？从根本上而言，这很难界定。

D cox： Actually I do agree with the spirit of the volcker rule。But obviously，Some deals have indeed been a proprietary and the proprietary grey zone。We might as well look back in Adam Smith views on this problem，He had discussed his earnings for customers and the relationship between the two。Even if the bankers himself very clear the difference between the two，But regulators but it is difficult to determine。To jp Morgan's hedge for example，I'm not an expert on this subject，But this is a good example：This is proprietary trading，Or hedge？Fundamentally speaking，It is difficult to define。

　　关注杠杆率指标 Attention leveraged index

　　日报：你似乎对刚刚公布的执行结果有些不快，因为执行过程中不免有一些妥协，比如杠杆率。

daily：You seem to be just released to implement results of some unpleasant，Because the implementation process not have some compromise，Such as leverage。

　　维克斯：我没有感到不快，英国政府宣布的执行方案毫无疑问很大部分地保留了我们原来的建议。当然也做出了一些变动，但我认为这可以理解。我们设定了15个月的征询意见时间，政府则进一步延长了九个月的时间来收集意见。举例来说，我们会自问：“规模小一些的银行是不是需要有些豁免？”我们会考虑一下设定豁免会带来的优势和劣势，然后进行平衡，但最后我们认为还是不设立豁免更好。而政府会考虑更多，这看上去无可厚非。

D cox：I didn't feel unhappy，The British government announced that the implementation of the scheme, a large part is no doubt we retained the original proposal。Of course also made some changes，But I think this can understand。We set the 15 months time of consultation，The government further extended the nine months time to collect opinions。For example，We will ask：“The smaller Banks is need some exemption？”We will consider setting will bring the exemption of advantages and disadvantages，Then the balance，But in the end we thought it would be better not to establish exemption。And the government will consider more，This looks more criticism。

　　不过，在两个问题上我们(ICB)和政府的建议确实不同：一个是杠杆率，我们的建议是，大型零售银行在巴塞尔协议的基础上达到更高的资本充足率，即10%而不是7%，同时我们建议相应地收紧杠杆率。对于全球系统重要性银行而言，对资本的要求也应在巴塞尔基础上进一步提高，对那些大型银行而言，应该在9.5%的基础上再提高1%。英国政府宣布的资本充足率其实和我们的建议相当类似。

but，In the two issues we(ICB)And the government's proposals really different：One is leverage，Our advice is，Large retail banking in the basis of the Basel agreement to achieve higher capital ratios，That is 10% instead of 7%，And at the same time we suggest correspondingly tightening leverage。For the global system bank in importance，To the capital requirements should also be based on further improve in Basel，For those large Banks，Should be in the 9.5% on go up 1%。The British government announced that capital adequacy ratio actually and our proposal quite similar。

　　金融危机带来的两大教训是：银行的资本金太少，风险加权也没有起到应有作用。风险加权现在已经有所改善，但我们认为完全依赖风险加权并非明智之举。所以我们建议在风险加权和杠杆率方面双管齐下。在巴塞尔协议中，要求风险加权资产比率为7%，杠杆率是3%。这里的杠杆是一级核心资本，是股东权益加上其他几种与权益类似的工具。所以在我们的体系当中，3%就变成了4%，也就是25倍，而不是33倍。我认为，对于全球系统性重要银行，巴塞尔如果能在杠杆率和风险加权资本要求上进一步提高会更好。

Financial crisis brought two big lesson is：A bank's capital too little，Risk weighted and no play its role。Risk weighted now have improved，But we think that completely dependent on risk weighted is not a choice。Therefore, we suggest that the risk weighted and leverage in in both。In Basel agreement，Request risk weighted assets ratio of 7%，Leverage ratio is 3%。Here is the lever of the core capital level，Shareholders' equity plus several other is and interests similar tools。So in our system of，3% will become 4%，Also is 25 times，Rather than 33 times。I think，For global systemic important bank，The Basel if can leverage and risk weighted in capital requirements on further improve will be better。

　　日报：根据英国政府的执行计划，零售银行业务部门可以使用衍生品来对冲利率和汇率波动。

daily：According to the British government execution plan，Retail banking department can use derivatives to hedge interest rate and exchange rate fluctuations。

　　维克斯：这里有两个关注点。第一，是否允许零售银行做对冲，我们的答案是肯定的，但是仅限于对冲目的。政府在这个问题上与我们保持了一致。第二，零售银行是否可以出售衍生产品，这和对冲目的不同。我们的建议是可以通过代理模式来做。这意味着零售客户可以通过代理购买外汇对冲产品或者期权，但银行自身不会承担风险。

D cox：Here are two concerns。The first，Whether to allow retail Banks do hedge，Our answer is yes，But limited to hedge purpose。The government on this issue and we remain the same。The second，Retail bank whether can sell derivatives，The different aims and hedge。Our advice is to be able to pass an agency model to do。This means that the retail customers can buy foreign exchange through an agent hedge products or options，But the bank itself would not risk。

　　政府已经表示零售银行可以在严格定义的条件下向客户提供衍生品。在这一点上，我不是很支持，我们认为，最好是通过代理模式进行，确保零售银行不直接出售这类衍生品。我认为，一旦开始允许他们自己供应衍生品，监管就可能比较困难。不过银行也会因为省去代理费而降低成本。对我而言，这并不是一个根本问题。如果监管松懈的话，那么零售银行的衍生品风险敞口就可能增加，这显然是不利的；但如果监管得力，且没有漏洞，那么效果也会无异。

The government has said retail Banks can strict definition in the conditions to provide customers with derivatives。At this point，I'm not very support，We think，The best is through the agency model，Ensure that retail bank does not sell direct this kind of derivatives。I think，As soon as you start to allow for their own supply derivatives，Supervision will be tough。But the bank will also save and reduce the cost for fee。To me，This is not a fundamental problems。If word of lax supervision，So the retail bank derivatives risk exposure is likely to increase，This obviously is unfavorable；But if supervision strength，And no loophole，So the effect also can is the same as。

　　日报：政府似乎更加关注成本和收益。从长期来看，你认为维克斯规则和沃尔克规则是否会对银行业的效率和盈利性带来一些负面影响？

daily：The government seems to pay more attention to the cost and benefit。In the long run，You think d cox rules and volcker rule whether the efficiency of the banking industry and profitability has some negative consequences？

　　维克斯：我们做了一些成本-收益的分析，这在我们去年9月份的最终报告中有所提及。政府之后也做了相关分析，他们的分析在去年12月份的报告中公布，但更多的是写在最新的白皮书中。这些分析的结果是非常一致的。事实上，取消纳税人给银行的隐性补贴会给银行融资成本带来一定的提高，同时会降低政府的借贷成本，因为风险由政府转移到了私有部门，这不是问题，只是一种解决方式。

D cox：We did some cost-income analysis，This is in our final report in September last year to mention。After the government have also made the correlation analysis，Their analysis in December's report released，But more and more are written in the latest white paper。The analysis result is very consistent。In fact，Cancel the taxpayer to the bank's hidden subsidies to the bank financing costs must be improved，At the same time will reduce the government's borrowing costs，Because the risk by government transferred to the private sector，This is not a problem，Just a way out。

　　当然我们承认，我们的建议对银行的协同效应会带来一定的损失，但这是值得付出的。将零售银行业务和投资银行业务彻底分割的损失和成本会更高。我们毕竟允许银行业保留现有的全能银行结构，资本可以在整个银行集团内部流动，但零售银行的资本金不能低于最低限度。在美国，如果整个银行集团出现问题，集团就会去零售银行部寻求资本救助，对此，我们的建议是，“你可以这么做，但要保证零售银行满足最低资本金要求。”所以我们保留了很多协同效应，同时保护了零售银行业务。

Of course we admit that，Our proposal for bank coordination effect can bring certain loss，But it is worth it。Will retail banking and investment banking division of the loss and thoroughly the cost would be higher。After all, we allow banking keep existing the almighty bank structure，Capital can be in the whole banking group internal flow，But retail bank's capital cannot under minimum。In the United States，If the bank group problems，The group will go to seek capital assistance retail home，this，Our advice is，“You can do so，But to ensure that retail bank meet minimum capital requirements。”So we keep many synergy effect，At the same time protect the retail banking。

　　资本金与结构并重 Capital and equal emphasis on the structure

　　日报：你提到了协同效应和整体的银行模式，这也是中国监管者正在讨论的问题，在中国，零售银行和投资银行业务之间有一堵不可逾越的高墙，你对中国这种模式怎么看？

daily：You mentioned the coordination effect and the whole banking model，This is also the Chinese regulators are discussed，In China，Retail banking and investment banking business between plugging insurmountable walls，You see this pattern of China how？

　　维克斯：我对中国银行业了解不多，但你说的好像和我们所倡议的比较相似，我相信中国银行的资本金也是高于国际基准线的。

D cox：I don't know much of the Chinese banking industry，But you're saying it's like and we have the initiative is similar，I believe that the bank of China's capital is also higher than international baseline。

　　日报：中国政府对银行业监管做出了调整，在指标和时间表方面和巴塞尔协议Ⅲ更加一致。

daily：The Chinese government made the adjustment of banking regulation，In the index and schedule and the Basel agreement Ⅲ more consistent。

　　维克斯：我们的观点是，银行需要一个双保险战略，一方面要保证资本充足，另一方面也要拥有一个能使整个系统更安全的集团结构。这并不是在抨击全能银行模式，这只是说，让我们拥有资本金充足而且结构安全的全能银行，这样才能合理控制风险。

D cox：We are of the opinion，Banks need a double insurance strategy，One the one hand, to ensure adequate capital，On the other hand also want to have a can make the system more secure group structure。This is not in attacking the almighty bank mode，This is just said，Let us have enough capital and the safety of the structure of the almighty bank，Such ability reasonable control risk。

　　日报：一些人似乎对系统性风险关注更多，这一点在欧盟的类似规则中强调更多，你所提出的规则与沃尔克规则以及正在研究的欧盟规则相比，是否能够更好地应对系统性风险？

daily：Some people seem to be focused more systemic risk，This point in the eu's similar rules that more in，You have put forward rules and volcker rule in the European Union rules and compared，Whether can better manage systemic risk？

　　维克斯：我并不希望这个建议被称为“规则”，其实它更像是一个框架。尽管我们非常专注于我们擅长的银行领域，但我们对整个金融系统问题也很关注。我把我们的工作更多视为银行业规避系统性风险的中长期解决方案的一部分，同时将银行本身引发系统性风险的可能性最小化。整体而言，我们的建议很大程度上是在系统风险框架内的。银行业风险可能是全球的，也可能来自国家层面或者区域系统。我们不能再像2008年时候那样，任由风险扩大最终导致2010年的欧债危机，我们需要一个更强韧的金融体系来应对风险，我们的建议就是这种设计的一部分。

D cox：I don't hope that the proposal is called“rules”，Actually it is more like a framework。Although we are very focused on the banking sector we are good at，But we to the financial system is also focus on problems。I put our work more as banking avoid systemic risk in long-term part of the solution，And at the same time, to bank itself trigger either minimize the likelihood of the systemic risk。overall，Our proposal is largely in the system within the framework of risk。Banking risk may be the world，Also may come from the national level or regional system。We can't be 2008 like that，Let the risk ultimately led to expand in 2010's debt crisis，We need a more tough financial system to deal with risk，Our proposal is part of this kind of design。

　　日报：如果10年前，世界各国采取了你的监管框架，是不是我们就可以避免这场危机了呢？

daily：If 10 years ago，The countries all over the world take your regulatory framework，If we can avoid the crisis？

　　维克斯：这个框架需要置于更广的背景下来看，即宏观审慎监管、市场基础设施、监管以及巴塞尔风险加权等多个维度。我们尽力使我们的建议与上述因素相一致，我们不可能绝对消除危机的风险，但我们可以更好地遏制风险，而不是任其放大。从英国的角度看，如果危机前采取了我们的监管框架，苏格兰皇家银行（RBS）的资产负债表就不会如此迅速地膨胀，也不会并购荷兰银行（ABN-AMRO）并通过他们那样的方式来获得融资。如果我们的框架当时就存在，政府就能更好地处理危机，就不会用纳税人那么多钱。因为如果银行的资本缓冲更多、损失吸收能力更强，而且银行的结构允许更有针对性的政策干预，即使发生问题，用纳税人的钱来救助银行的可能性会降低，即使用，也会更有针对性。所以，我并不能说我们的监管框架能够避免这场危机，因为这与全球失衡、宏观经济政策以及其他很多事情相关。但我认为至少破坏力度不会这么大，各国政府也会有更好的工具来渡过难关。

D cox：This framework need in the background of the broader look down，That is the macro prudent supervision、Market infrastructure、Supervision and risk weighted, and other dimensions of Basel。We try our best to make our advice and the above factors are in agreement，We can't eliminate the risk of absolute crisis，But we can do better to curb the risk，Rather than let it enlarged。From the point of view of Britain，If the crisis took us before the regulatory framework，Royal bank of Scotland（RBS）Balance sheet would not be so quickly inflation，Also not Dutch bank mergers and acquisitions（ABN-AMRO）And through their way to obtain financing。If our framework was there，The government are better able to deal with the crisis，Won't use taxpayer so much money。Because if the bank's capital buffer more、Loss absorption ability stronger，And the structure of the bank allows more specific policy intervention，Even if the problems，Use taxpayer money to aid the possibility of bank will be reduced，Is used to，Will more targeted。so，And I can't say our regulatory framework can avoid the crisis，Because this and global imbalances、Macroeconomic policies, and many other things related。But I think at least efforts won't be so great destruction，Governments will have the tools to get through。

　　日报：你对应急可转债资本工具（Co-co）怎么看？对这个监管框架而言是否重要？

daily：You can turn to emergency debt capital tools（Co-Co）How to see？As to the regulatory framework is important？

　　维克斯：我们对这些工具持中性态度，为银行在保证权益资本的基础上，使用其他资本和债务来吸收损失是很重要的，Co-co可以是其中的一部分。

D cox：We had these tools holding a neutral position，For bank guarantee rights in the basis of capital，Use other capital and debt to absorb losses is very important，Co-Co can be part of that。

　　日报：对中国的领导人，你想要传达怎样的信息？

daily：The Chinese leaders，How do you want to communicate the information？

　　维克斯：我仍然会强调银行拥有强大资本金的重要性，这有助于吸收损失。同时，安全的银行结构也并不意味着全能银行结构的终结，只是说加强银行结构的安全性，让他们能够在风险和危机出现的时候有能力抵御这些风险，降低他们被危机打垮的可能性。

D cox：I will still have a strong emphasis on the importance of bank capital，This help to absorb the losses。At the same time，Safe bank structure also does not mean the end of the almighty bank structure，Just said that improving the safety of the bank structure，Let them to risk and crisis appears when has the ability to resist the risk，Reduce the possibility of the crisis they were destroyed。